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November 16, 2005

Computer keyboards suck (, )

by fluffy at 8:09 PM
Once upon a time, I had severe carpal tunnel syndrome. During this time I went to Hong Kong, and while I was there I discovered a copious number of small form-factor keyboards, which had minimal key travel and were narrow enough that I could keep my mouse at a reasonable location rather than having to either reach awkwardly for the mouse or keep the keyboard off to the side. Within a few months, these keyboards helped me to reclaim the sensation in my fingers. I bought several keyboards, and sold many of them to my computer scientist compatriots back in America, keeping two for myself.

One day I spilled a soda on one of them, and a few years later the other one wore out.

So I contacted the manufacturer of these keyboards, and they said that they couldn't sell them to me unless I bought them in lots of 100, as they only sell them wholesale, but they referred me to their American distributor. And I contacted their American distributor and they did not sell these particular keyboards but they were more than happy to sell me other models made by this manufacturer, of which all of them were gaudy, stupid-looking, and not in a small form-factor. And I was sad.

Over the next two years, my carpal tunnel syndrome reached the same state that it had been before, and I decided to find another manufacturer of small form-factor keyboards, and I found that they were all either extremely chintzy or extremely expensive. But then I discovered that Kinesis, manufacturers of fine ergonomic keyboards (which are unsuitable for my needs), also sold a small form-factor keyboard for use with laptops on the road, with the intent of providing a better typing experience than the built-in keyboard for a laptop. It was $40, but it was Kinesis, who are well-regarded for their high-end ultra-ergonomic keyboards, so I bought two, one for home, one for work.

One of them worked, though its keyboard action was bad, and the other did not work at all, so I sent it back to be replaced. And lo, they sent me a replacement, which did function when I plugged it in, but a number of the keys were quite unreliable, including the space bar, which is a rather important key.

When even Kinesis keyboards suck, you know there's something wrong with the industry. Why doesn't anyone make a non-sucky small form-factor keyboard anymore? JME/SunRace (the company which made the ones I bought in 2000) doesn't even make wired SFF keyboards anymore (they're all wireless) so I can't even use them at work, and all the SFF keyboards I can find have extremely stupid key layouts, are overpriced, and don't seem like they'd be particularly reliable.

Why aren't there more makers of SFF keyboards? Most people would be better off with one. The average computer user doesn't use the number pad very often, and when the do, that's what the numlock key is for. But in exchange for having the convenience of being able to enter their credit card numbers a bit faster if they happen to be skilled at 10-key entry, they need to have either their mouse or their keyboards at an awkward angle, which is the #1 cause for RSI which leads to carpal tunnel syndrome.

Even the "working" keyboard is still pretty shitty. It's a scissor-style action like on laptops (which is why I got it, because that's how the JME/SunRace keyboards were!) but it seems to have very loose manufacturing tolerances. sometimes a key needs to be pressed pretty hard if it's going to respond, making an extra snapping feeling/sound on the way down. If anything these are WORSE for my wrists.

Fucking Kinesis. I should just return them both and get a refund. But then I'll be back to the very-good-but-still-too-wide Apple Pro keyboard which came with my G5, and still stuck with my crap-ass Dell keyboard at work. At work they'll provide me an "ergonomic" keyboard (meaning an MS Natural 31337) which is even worse — they're even wider (more awkward reaching for the mouse, which now has even less space on the keyboard tray), the cursor keys are in a stupid little diamond cluster instead of an inverted-T, and they have a crappy built-in wrist-rest which gets in the way of the crappy built-in wrist-rest on my keyboard tray which pushes it back and kills my posture even MORE.

All these "solutions" are okay if they're in isolation but they combine with other things which try to solve it which makes things worse than what the original problem was to begin with.

Meanwhile I take typing breaks every few minutes, my wrists fucking hurt, my fingers are numb, and I feel like I'm at the mercy of a broken system which seems to want me to fail at everything, because CTS means that my brain is trapped in a body which can't do anything that I'm good at. When my wrists are acting up I can't even play DDR because the increased blood flow from exercise raises my blood pressure which then applies more pressure against the median nerve from the inside. So I can't even do things which have NOTHING TO DO WITH MY HANDS.

The only keyboard I can find which seems like a good idea is the small-form-factor version of the IBM Model M. However, it's PS/2-only (and doesn't work very well with most PS/2→USB adaptors), extremely loud (so I can't use it in my recording studio), and since it hasn't been made in about 10 years it goes for $125, if you can even find one, which is rare.

Ugh. No wonder I feel so goddamn hopeless these days.

Comments

#6745 11/16/2005 08:47 pm
The email I just sent their tech support department:

I just received the replacement keyboard, and although it powers up, several of the keys are fairly unresponsive, including the spacebar. So it continues to be untenable for my needs. Furthermore, the other keyboard has quickly developed many problems with its action on several keys as well. I feel that the Minitype keyboard is either of a flawed design or manufactured very poorly, and either way, these keyboards are making my wrists much worse.

I bought them because I needed a small form factor keyboard for both home and work, to reduce the distance necessary to reach for the mouse while keeping the keyboard centered in front of me. Several years ago I had extremely bad carpal tunnel syndrome and found some small form factor keyboards which worked extremely well and helped me manage my CTS much better than any of the ergonomic keyboards on the market. However, they wore out after several years of heavy typing, and my wrists have returned to the state they were in before I found the small form factor keyboards.

So I was overjoyed to find that Kinesis made an SFF keyboard - the exact form factor and keyboard characteristics I needed by a brand known for making very high-quality ergonomic keyboards! Hence my order for the two of them.

I was willing to accept one defective keyboard as a fluke, but so far I have found one to be nonfunctional and the other two to be essentially unusable (even after trying a couple weeks of breaking in on the one which wasn't outright defective). They certainly don't live up to the Kinesis brand, and feel far worse than keyboards which cost 1/4 as much.

The Minitype's design and/or manufacturing processes need work.

I would like to return the keyboards for a refund, including return shipping, as well as what I paid for shipping the first one back.

Thank you.


So now I feel like Pat. Over the next week I guess I'll be impersonating the entire Achewood cast or something.
#6746 11/16/2005 10:05 pm
I completely feel your pain (literally) concerning crappy 'boards. Lots of junk being built.

This one might suit you. Works on just about all platforms including Mac. It's got the classic shape and you can customize the bejeezus out of it, from flat to angled and so on. It's got the ergo-friendly nature while still having keys where they're supposed to be (in my opinion). It isn't one of those "ride the wave" 'boards either.

I myself being a PC-rat from way back prefer the 'boards with proper inverted-T arrows, 3x3 ins/home/pgup del/end/pgdn, big enter key and big backspace key. I'm very particular. Wink
#6747 11/16/2005 10:33 pm
Hm, that looks almost perfect, except I really don't like how the cursor keys are on the number pad's section. I use cursor keys all the time.

I did just find the i-rocks X-slim keyboard which looks pretty good and gets good reviews. But then again, so did the Minitype...
#6748 11/16/2005 11:19 pm Mouse Systems
I have a keyboard I've been using for about 7 years now, that I take very good care of, made by mouse systems. It's similar to the MS 31337 (lol) but has two features that make it much better. #1, the arrow keys and ins/del/home/end/pup/pdwn keys are in the correct configuration, and #2, the Y key is actually on the right hand side of the keyboard. The action is still excellent after all this time, and I've never even had to take it apart to clean it. I really worry that it will eventually wear out one day, and I'll be back to a keyboard that sucks, but until then, this is my best friend. I haven't tried to use it with a USB adaptor, I'm not even sure if one was available when it was first manufactured... The Model # is SK-6000, and it's a standard Mouse Systems 1-0-7 key keyboard.

This has been the only keyboard that doesn't give me wrist pain.

Oh, and the arrow keys are all in the inverted T configuration, too.
#6749 11/16/2005 11:23 pm
If there's a numeric keypad I'm not interested.
#6750 11/16/2005 11:32 pm I'm just curious,
But, why can't you just ignore that part of the keyboard, like I do?


Oooooh wait - you're right handed, aren't you? Crap. Sorry. I'm a lefty, so it doesn't bother me. My mouse is on the left...

Don't suppose you've tried alternating which hand you use the mouse with? I routinely alternate between hands with the mouse, usually using the right hand at work, and the left at home, so that I don't beat up my wrists too badly.

Speaking of DDR, I have a friend who's getting DDR for her 6 year old. Can you reccomend a set of pads that don't suck, but won't break the bank for a 6 year old?
#6751 11/16/2005 11:35 pm
fluffy
If there's a numeric keypad I'm not interested.


Something like this then? (it's got the inverted T arrows)

http://www.sforh.com/keyboards/micrimini-small.html
#6752 11/17/2005 12:00 am
Like that, but it has the same problem as a lot of SFF keyboards in that ` is in a very odd (and bad) place.
#6753 11/17/2005 01:39 am
From the same site, another possible solution: http://www.sforh.com/accessories/mouse-bridges.html
#6754 11/17/2005 03:37 am
Would one of there be any good?

http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/en/hhkeyboard/leaflet/cables.html#hhkusb

I've got an older PS2 one, and the action is very good. The keys are full size, but the keyboard itself is very small.

The only thing that makes it no good for me is the lack of a £ key (and remapping is difficult without using the $ key), and the lack of dedicated function keys. It does have function keys, but you have to press the FN key to get them.

The one I've got doesn't have a keypad either, but the USB version has got a small inverted T cursor pad.

The quality of mine is very good.
#6755 11/17/2005 05:30 am Tons of mini-keyboards available
http://tinyurl.com/7ju2v

The link leads to NewEgg.com. There must be twenty different mini-keyboards without number keypads there. Most of them reasonable enough to buy and try. Enjoy.




Gedvondur
#6757 11/17/2005 08:49 am
Mouse bridge: Ah, nice to see that people make those commercially. I made something like that out of cardboard which worked well for a while after my mini keyboards wore out. Pretty pricey though. Maybe I'll try just hacking up a spare document organizer at work or something.

Happy Hacking: removes a lot of keys that I still need, and although I appreciate that the Ctrl key is in the correct place there's still some times when the stupid place makes more sense, with some of the stranger chordings that Emacs makes you do (which is why I remap capslock to ctrl rather than swapping them).

NewEgg selection: Nothing there I hadn't seen before. They're all cheaply-constructed disposables with crap-ass layouts and/or wireless interfaces, which are banned at my workplace.
#6758 11/17/2005 08:58 am Re: Tons of mini-keyboards available
Gedvondur
http://tinyurl.com/7ju2v

The link leads to NewEgg.com. There must be twenty different mini-keyboards without number keypads there. Most of them reasonable enough to buy and try. Enjoy.




Gedvondur


Unfortunately most of what newegg carries doesn't have the best build quality. The only one possibly worth anything on that page is the A4TECH Wired X-Slim, but even by looking at it the keys are short (not standard height).
#6759 11/17/2005 09:07 am
I actually prefer keys with a shallow travel though. That's one of the things which made the JME/SunRace keyboard so great.

The only thing I can see expressly WRONG with the A4 X-Slim is that they decided, for whatever reason, to add an extra \| key between alt and meta. That's just retarded. They already had a \| in the right place! Why would they do such a thing?
#6760 11/17/2005 10:01 am
Good eye, I didn't even see that. It is a bit (a lot, actually) on the retarded side. Were I to hazard a guess, that 'board was probably a laptop design originally and if so, that extra key was probably an "Fn" (function) key. Looking at my Dell Inspiron 6000 (what I'm using currently) that's exactly what's there.

That "feature" alone would convince me not to buy it.
#6761 11/17/2005 10:07 am IAWTR
I agree with this rant.

It seems insane to me, that people who's job it is basically to sit around and type all day do so on flimsy, uncomfortable keyboards that are the cheapest crap the companies can produce. Why not spend just a few quid more and save yourself years of pain?

I'm happy with my Microsoft (natural?) split keyboard though. I find it's the mouse that's the problem, and the best thing I can do is to use it as little as possible.

Stuff that's helped me that probably won't help you. Browse the web with the keyboard (Opera has shift-cursor navigation and there's probably a Firefox plugin). Unplug the mouse completely and rely on keyboard shortcuts and an accessibility option to move the cursor with the cursor keys in an emergency.
#6762 11/17/2005 10:14 am
I used to use the keyboard for everything but web browsing, but now that I use a Mac at home I'm used to using mouse and keyboard equally.
#6767 11/18/2005 11:07 am
fluffy
I used to use the keyboard for everything but web browsing, but now that I use a Mac at home I'm used to using mouse and keyboard equally.

I've found it very hard to use a Mac with the keyboard, but having learnt, I've got slightly better. Still, on this and some rendering issues (dpi given as actual dpi springs to mind. It's probably just my local 10.3 machines that don't have subpixel rendering, which is my other issue), Windows is the most friendly offering.

Is this keyboard any good to you? It seems to be the most easily available bluetooth keyboard and mouse set, and has a separate numeric keypad which is a remote too. Pricey, but...
#6768 11/18/2005 01:45 pm
No, I don't want Bluetooth. It's not allowed at work.

Personally I find Mac way the hell more friendly, and don't care about either the DPI or the subpixel issue (personally I can't stand subpixel rendering anyway, as I see the fugly color fringe around everything). But a lot of apps don't really support the keyboard, and what the Mac adds to the mouse experience (Exposé being a big one) is just hard to replicate with the keyboard.

But Mac vs. PC bullshit is totally contrary to the point. Even at work I need the use of the mouse.
#6777 11/20/2005 04:27 am
You may want to look at some compact medical surplus keyboards. Last year a friend and I were building a MAME (arcade emulator) cocktail table for a client and they requested that a keyboard be mounted inside the maintenance door, a side of the table that folds open on our design. My friend had this thin, compact, lightweight keyboard in a box of computer parts that worked out perfectly. The key travel was VERY shallow, almost like typing on a membrane keypad. He said he got it in a lot of surplus components from the medical center. (I'll call him and see if he remembers it) If I remember correctly the whole thing was about the size of a sheet of notebook paper.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I like the old, heavy, switched, metal encased keyboards with the curly cable. ..I'll pay for them someday.

EDIT: It was somewhat like this: http://www.ruggedtech.com/tg3.html However a lot more conventional looking.
#6778 11/20/2005 05:17 am
Cool, thanks for the tip...
#6779 11/20/2005 11:36 am
Those look kinda like the "totally indestructible keyboard" that they sell at Radio Shack and CompUSA. They do have shallow travel but they also require a lot of pressure, which defeats the purpose...
#6783 11/21/2005 01:30 pm
fluffy
No, I don't want Bluetooth. It's not allowed at work.


Aah. Then other people's suggestions may be more helpful.

fluffy
But Mac vs. PC bullshit is totally contrary to the point. Even at work I need the use of the mouse.


Sorry, I was doing a rant about the specifics of the computers I use. I like mouselessnessfriendliness, particularly as the USB port on my laptop just broke and I'm restricted to touchpad and nipple. And the Emacs I use at work (and am not allowed to install EMACS on, ironically) are just dire even if not at 800×600.

Anyway. Find something. I hope.
#6871 12/17/2005 03:24 pm
I'm still pretty happy with my Kensington SlimTypes, for what it's worth.
#8580 02/20/2007 11:44 pm
I have no idea why I was rereading this old entry but it's funny how things change so much. I forget why but I gave up on the SlimTypes and moved to the Apple Pro Keyboard again, and at work I have a Kinesis Maxim, which works well enough though really the best thing I can do is be better about taking typing breaks.
#8950 Dr_Barnowl (unregistered) 04/15/2007 07:11 am Have you looked at Cherry?
The two best keyboards I have used are the Model M (which is too loud for you in that studio) and the Cherry G80-3000 (which is probably also too loud for you). But they do a wide range of keyboards.

The other model I saw mentioned was at typematrix dot com (sorry, spamfilter).

I've never touched one, but it looks suitable for your needs. It addresses the hand-travel-to-mouse thing (even more so, it's small enough to sit on a notebook and let you use the touchpad). The form factor is compact and requires less lateral travel than most keyboards. The keyswitches look light and low-travel, although they are of the laptop style.

I have to say that I feel that RSI is an intrinsic risk with membrane keyboards, since they provide poor feedback as to the force required to initiate contact. With a buckling-spring key switch (like the Model M and the Cherry above), you get positive confirmation right to your fingertip and can avoid pressing harder than required. It's a shame that your work environment prohibits you using one.
#8951 04/15/2007 08:14 am
Hm, the typematrix looks interesting, but it doesn't seem like it addresses pronation. Anyway I already have a Kinesis Maxim at work, and the Freestyle (which starts shipping soon) addresses all of the problems with the Maxim as well so I might get one for home.
#10918 05/27/2008 03:00 pm compact keyboard
Did you ever find a satisfactory compact keyboard?
#10923 05/27/2008 07:49 pm
I'm back to using the Kensington SlimType at work.